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World Citizen
Ken O'Keefe

Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 511 - Threads: 46
Location: London

Bungle wrote;
Quote:
And I guess if you also accept the melting steel beams theory then its one less argument you can use to blame the goverment of the US and justify your stand point.



Nice try brother but my reason is as simple as I do not have the time. I am returning to Palestine in just over a week and am working day and night on an action there come Sept. 11, 2004.

For those who may want to know more you will have to wait till at least April 22 when I will announce the Palestine Action at a major press conference in Ramallah (Palestine). Virtually the whole world will know soon enough anyway, trust me on this.

But as fate would have it a good friend of mine sent me one of the latest exposes of 9-11; and it included some reference to the steel beam bullshit. I will include the section about that below and start a new thread with the whole article.

Right on Frog, you know it brother. Wink

Thinking Unthinkable Thoughts
Theologian Charges White House with Complicity in 9/11 Attack

Interview of David Ray Griffen by Nick Welsh (excerpth from full interview at http://independent.com/news/news906.htm
" TARGET="_blank">http://independent.com/news/news906.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://independent.com/news/news906.htm


There’s nothing the least bit wild-eyed or hysterical about David Ray Griffin. In person, he’s disarmingly calm, and speaks in the unflappably precise and deliberate style of a lifelong academic. Which is exactly what Griffin is. A respected philosopher of religion at the Claremont School of Theology since the 1970s and longtime Santa Barbara resident, Griffin is now raising questions that even President Bush’s harshest critics are afraid to think, let alone ask aloud.

In his latest book, The New Pearl Harbor — released just two weeks ago — Griffin all but accuses the Bush administration of taking a dive on September 11 and giving Al Qaeda terrorists an unobstructed shot at the World Trade Center. According to Griffin, a case can be made that the Bush administration arranged the attack, or allowed it to happen. He is aware that he may be dismissed as a conspiracy nut, but given the “transcendent importance” of the issue, Griffin is willing to assume that risk and has taken to repeating Michael Moore’s line on the subject: “Personally, I’m not into conspiracy theories except those that are true.” I met with Griffin over coffee to discuss his book and the September 11 investigation. The following is an edited account of their conversation.

'...You suggest that the World Trade Center buildings must have been detonated with explosives to account for the heat generated and the speed the structures collapsed on themselves. That sounds extreme. What’s the evidence?

'The evidence is cumulative — several things that point to controlled demolition. First, a steel-framed building, according to all the reading I’ve done, has never collapsed solely because of fire. They will bend and buckle in a very large all-consuming fire that lasts for a very long time. But they have never collapsed.

'But it was not just fire — it was fire and impact at the same time.

The twin towers were very large buildings and extremely well built with a lot of redundancy. Even people who believe the official theory say that the crash of the plane into the towers should have been insignificant, that the shock would have been immediate, but it was over very soon and that the buildings were extremely solid and stable and not moving. In the south tower, much of the fuel from it spilled outside as it collided into the corner. So there was a giant firebomb which looked very impressive, but what that means is that most of the fuel was burned up within a minute, so there was not much fuel inside. Therefore, the fire in the south tower had almost gone out in less than an hour. And that brings us to another strange fact about the towers. If the official story were correct, that the combination of the crash and the fire brought the buildings down, we would expect the north tower to have come down first, because it was hit first. And yet the south tower collapsed first. It collapsed in less than an hour. That makes perfect sense if you’re willing to accept that it was caused by controlled demolition, meaning the building was wired with explosives. And if the official story has it that the buildings were brought down by fire, you’d want the buildings to go down before the fire had completely gone out.

'What you’re suggesting sounds like something from. X-Files. But on X-Files, you always had agents Scully and Mulder trying to get the truth out. Here we don’t have any Scullys and Mulders. You’d think this whole new unilateral expression of military supremacy might have opponents within the administration coming unglued and that they’d be leaking info damaging to Bush, but we don’t hear those voices. Why not?

Members of the FBI, the CIA, and other intelligence agencies have taken oaths to not reveal things they’ve been told not to reveal . . . and if they violate this oath, repercussions may occur. You have a wife and children, and somebody says to you, “If you go public with that I cannot guarantee the safety of your family.” Would you go public with that? You have to choose between your family’s welfare and the welfare of the nation, and your story might not do that much good. You might just be denounced as a conspiracy kook. The press would ignore you, belittle you. People might look into your past and find that you had done some things you’re not so proud of. People would learn very quickly to keep their mouths shut....'

full interview at
[url] http://independent.com/news/news906.htm

World Citizen Spin Ken O'Keefe
To watch us dance is to hear our hearts speak. - Hopi Indian Saying
http://www.worldservice.org/reg.html
kenokeefe@uksociety.org

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Old Post08-04-2004 20:35 PM
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Thumpah Thumpah Thum...
Must remember something

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 37 - Threads: 1
Location: Stonehenge

Quote:
Bungle wrote on 08-04-2004 01:47 AM
Snipzee's


By the way can you tell me where I can get hold of some of these Small Nuclear weapons from.
I have a rather old Shed that I need to demolish, and they sound like much more fun than just hitting it with a hammer.




Heres more fireworx from Joe Vialls and Steve Seymour

Copyright Joe Vialls, 15 March 2004

6 April: Madrid 'Terror Suspects' Did NOT Conveniently Commit Suicide - Scroll Down to red update

Within seconds of the first deadly explosions inside and outside Madrid's Atocha station, you could sense that the culprits to be blamed for this crime would be Osama Bin Laden and the fictional 'al Qaeda', but there was no point in writing about it then. The first three days immediately following the ten synchronized military explosions were pure unashamed George Orwell time, with Christian and Judaic media alike completely immersing the general public in their predictable mind games.
First it was claimed the perpetrators were members of Euskadi Ta Askatasuna [ETA] which means "Basque Homeland and Freedom," and a gratifying roar of spontaneous anger could instantly be heard all over the country. Relatives of the dead and injured badly needed somebody to hate, and the homespun terrorists from the northern Basque region of Spain would suffice in the first instance. This distraction served to focus public attention several hundred miles away from the four primary crime scenes, where closer inspection would surely have generated some very awkward questions for the Spanish authorities.
Then only a few hours later in what appeared to be a chilling and apparently stupid rerun of 9-11, police officers were tipped off by media about a suspicious white van parked near Alcala de Henares railway station, which was then found to contain a handful of detonators, and several Muslim religious tracts on a cassette tape. So the 'al Qaeda' fix was already in, though the media deliberately played it down at this early stage. As we will shortly discover, the western media already knew that the platform surveillance videotapes at Alcala de Henares showed no trace of any "Muslim Terrorists" boarding any of the four bombed trains, but did not wish local police to discover this glaring omission.
After a suitable delay during which the crimes scenes grew cold, and critical evidence was removed, the London-based Arabic newspaper, al-Quds al-Arabi, suddenly announced that it had received a letter from the Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, claiming the bombings for al-Qaeda. This was the signal for global media networks to convert millions of sheeple all around the world, from their existing belief that Catholic Basques were responsible for the atrocity, to the newly-generated fiction that dangerous Muslim 'terrorists' had somehow slipped into Spain under the radar, and blown up four trains. This stunning religious conversion was reinforced when police found a planted unexploded haversack bomb in one of the train wrecks, which contained copper rather than aluminum detonators traditionally used by the Basques.
Unfortunately, since minute zero on day one, western media outlets had made a deliberate omission so inexplicable and so gross that it proved their own direct involvement or complicity in the mass murder of more than 200 Spanish civilians. Despite the fact that every media outlet taking its lead from the omnipotent New York Times reported that between eight and ten explosive devices had been detonated on board Spanish trains during the rush hour, not one of them mentioned suicide bombers. This is an impossible omission, because we all know that every car, or bus or plane or train blown up anywhere by 'Muslim Terrorists', is invariably attacked by 'suicide bombers'. How do we know this? Because the New York Times always tells us so, that is how. No matter whether it is a truck in Baghdad, a bus in Tel Aviv, a car in Moscow or a train in Chechnya, the American media villain of the piece is always the ubiquitous Muslim suicide bomber.
The only people capable of knowing in the early stages that suicide bombers were not used in Madrid, and that 'suicide bombers' could therefore not be mentioned by media at all, for fear of alerting local police to those damning video surveillance tapes at Alcala de Henares, were members of the terrorist group responsible for executing the attack. In turn, the only terrorist group capable of controlling the editorial content of the New York Times is N.O.S. [Novus Ordo Seclorum], which draws its funding from Wall Street, its intelligence from B'nai B'rith, and its depraved Special Forces muscle from Tel Aviv.
Before moving on later in the report to prove this beyond doubt, by explaining exactly how the terrorist attack was conducted on the morning of Thursday 11 March 2004, we first need to examine the motive, because most people spend an enormous part of their time asking the age-old question "Why?" Forget all artful media attempts to drive you towards a World Trade Center lookalike strike, based largely on the indisputable fact that the attack on Madrid took place exactly 911 days after the New York strike on 9-11. Rest assured the attack date was arranged in advance by N.O.S., in order to assist its media collaborators with the propaganda to follow.
ETA car bombs in Spain circa 2001. Note that because of the low-order explosives [combined with incendiaries] always used by these homespun Basque terrorists, an inevitable side effect of weapon detonation is fire. In direct contrast, the high-order explosives used by N.O.S. in the Madrid attack, did not generate enough flame to light even a single cigarette at any of the ten individual sites where the weapons were detonated. For the precise motive behind Madrid, we need to move back briefly in time to mid-2002, when Australian Prime Minister John Howard was having enormous problems convincing Australian citizens to go 'All The Way With the USA' in the latter's blatant religious crusade against Islam, also known as the 'War on Terror'. Though very few Americans are aware of it, two years ago more than 90% of all Australians were opposed to Howard's slavish obedience to the White House, and said so in no uncertain terms. Countless Aussies pointed out correctly that although thousands died every year in road traffic accidents and domestic muggings, no one had ever been killed in Australia by a terrorist.
Clearly 'ordinary' citizens had to be taught a sharp lesson that Muslim terrorists were real, and that all Australians should therefore allow John Howard and his lesser Zionist lackeys to impose whatever Draconian restrictions they wished on the populace, and further allow Australian servicemen to die overseas for George W. Bush. By early October 2002 the sharp lesson was ready, and a sophisticated multi-pronged N.O.S. terrorist operation was launched against Australian tourists on the popular holiday Island of Bali. More than 200 died and over 1,000 were seriously injured. Are these precise numbers starting to ring any alarm bells anywhere about the Madrid operation?
While Bali did very little in terms of altering the cynical Australian view of 'Terror', it did have the effect of embarrassing many citizens into silence, in other words Howard and his lackeys were then able to dispatch servicemen overseas to die for George W. Bush and his Zionist masters, without being continually mobbed by crowds of angry Australians. A handful of semi-literate Indonesia Muslims were later picked up and injected with scopolamine until they made ridiculous and impossible confessions about the sophisticated bombings in Bali, and that was the end of that, at least so far as Australia was concerned.
Over the next eighteen months in Spain things got even worse than they had been in Australia. Where 90% of all Australians had opposed military intervention in the Middle East, the figure in Spain rose as high as 96% , until at one point it seemed as though the only Spaniard determined to sacrifice Spanish servicemen in Iraq for George W. Bush and his Zionist masters, was Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar. Because of his truculent defiance of the wishes of the Spanish people, Aznar was sure to be voted out at the next general election, which made the timing of the N.O.S. attack in Madrid a masterstroke.
When Aznar was finally thrown out at the general elections [which happened just a few hours ago], the media would be able to claim that Spaniards were angry with him for not doing enough in the 'War on Terror' to prevent the Madrid attack, when in reality Aznar had already done so much in terms of supporting George W. Bush and his cronies, that he had managed to alienate more than 90% of the entire Spanish population.
The Madrid attack also served to badly frighten the Spanish people in general, and to warn the new incoming Socialist Prime Minister that he has better toe New York's line, or more N.O.S. attacks would be sure to follow. Certainly Spain will be allowed to withdraw her troops from Iraq, because that particular crazed neocon invasion is already a lost cause, but future cooperation in the ongoing religious crusade against Islam generally is not negotiable.
One of the biggest illusions of the Madrid operation, lay in convincing you the public that a large crowd of nimble terrorists just hopped on board all four trains as they were 'passing through' Alcala de Henares railway station on the down platform towards Atocha.
Now think about this carefully. In my personal view each of the ten blasts would have required between 40 and 50 pounds of high-order military explosive in the C4/Semtex-H category. Such explosives have a very low specific gravity, meaning they are exceptionally bulky for their given weight. Therefore, this would have required ten [strong] terrorists on the down platform at the same time, each lugging a huge haversack in the middle of the rush hour. Strange then that no eyewitness at Alcala de Henares remembers seeing any of them, for these bulky gentlemen would most certainly have stood out in the crowd, and caused considerable suspicion among the commuters.
As mentioned earlier, this was the reason why the creative N.O.S. directed the western media to send the Spanish police off in various different directions for a while immediately after the attack, which kept them so occupied that they forgot to check the surveillance cameras at Alcala de Henares railway station. Had police done so, or should they do so now if the tapes still exist, they will see only Spanish commuters on their way to work.
So exactly where did N.O.S. bomb-up the four different trains, how did they do it, and how could they be sure each train would be in the right place when they pressed the remote detonation triggers? For the answer to that, take a look at the railway map below, which shows the procedure to be relatively simple, provided of course that you have unrestricted access to the trains themselves, and unrestricted access to the secure Spanish Rail system computers.
Now we can take another look at the pictures at the top of this page. Obviously by now you have found the first clue, i.e. that there was no fire at any of the ten blast sites, proving in turn that high-order military explosives were used in considerable quantities. Smuggling anything up to 500 pounds of very low specific gravity C4 into Spain would be extremely difficult nowadays, unless of course you already owned or controlled discrete facilities not normally inspected by Spanish Customs or the Police. It seems likely that even the most cynical of readers will be prepared to admit that ten big bearded Muslims, trying to lug giant haversacks of explosives into the country, would be instantly detected by even the most intellectually-challenged of customs officers.
The second clue relates to the pattern of the blast. If you look very carefully, you will note that some of the fragments buried in the shredded roof panels, are in fact shrapnel from the floor of the carriage itself. Without going into too much technical detail [there is plenty of that for reference in the Bali report linked below], it is impossible for bits of the floor to become embedded in the roof, unless the charges were fixed BELOW the floor before detonation. This is borne out by the fact that the train disabled outside Atocha station had its back completely broken in two different places. Once again, haversack charges casually placed on top of the internal floor, would be completely incapable of shattering the strong steel longitudinal support girders running the entire length of the chassis of each carriage.
Because it is impossible to attach sophisticated explosive charges on the underside of moving trains, obviously they were placed on the rolling stock under cover of darkness, while the trains were stationary during the night. This brings us to the next major illusion, uncovered by me after a series of very expensive calls from unlisted mobile phones. Though the western media deliberately led you to believe that these trains were 'just passing through' on continual services, that is not the case. Every one of the four trains were 'first service', i.e. each was making its first run of the day from its respective overnight depot, after being serviced and cleaned.
More pictures from the scene, with that on the left providing more visual evidence
that the charges were placed below the floors of the railway carriages.

So now we know where the charges were placed, but how was it managed? Night depots are traditionally well-lit and well guarded, meaning that the bombers must have looked credible, or bribed their way into the depots, or were actually carry convincing Spanish Rail identity cards, real or forged. Because relying on chance credibility or handfuls of hard cash at the gates would be considered crude unacceptable risks for an operation of this importance, it is beyond reasonable doubt that Spanish Rail identity cards were used.
Nor does it stop there. Just picking any old train to bomb-up would be hopelessly inadequate, because there would be no guarantee that the random bombed-up train would even be put into service in the morning, much less be in exactly the correct position at the right time, for the planned maximum media impact. To do this the bombers needed access to rolling stock allocation for the following morning, which means they had direct access to the secure Spanish Rail computer system. We are not talking homespun Basques or 'al Qaeda' desert Muslims here, now are we? This was a highly professional operation, organized on sovereign Spanish territory by 'sleepers' who knew the lay of the land, and in all probability had lived in Madrid most or even all of their lives.
These organizers facilitated entry for the professional Special Forces team selected for the job, and here we come down to a choice of only one state. Though I am aware there are dozens of paranoids out there who believe that American, British, French and other western Special Forces delight in killing innocent civilians, you can take it from me that this is simply not the case. In a perceived 'war zone' like Iraq it is certainly true that all soldiers kill civilians from time to time, either by accident or out of fear for their own lives, but targeting hundreds of unarmed civilians on their way to work in an essentially neutral country, requires a cold-blooded mentality quite beyond the reach of organizations such as Delta Force or the Special Air Service, to name but two examples.
The only people with sufficient field experience for a job like this, and the total disregard for human life needed to carry it off successfully, are the direct descendents of the Myahudi monsters who raped and shot their way through the Muslim Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Lebanon all those years ago, which is why N.O.S. still uses them exclusively for its international wet work. It is beyond any doubt that false flag operations like Madrid will continue unabated, until the red tide finally overwhelms the Jewish State, and forces its occupants back into the primordial slime from whence they first emerged.
Quite apart from being a pensioner living on woefully inadequate disability support, the author incurred particularly heavy overheads researching this report, primarily due to the massive cost of extended international calls from unlisted mobile phones. If anyone out there has any cash to spare, please do not hesitate to click on the button below and make a contribution towards costs. It is only because of people like you that I manage to stay on the Internet at all. Thank you for caring. Attack on Bali Sunburn Vialls HomeUpdate 06 April 2004
Madrid 'Terror Suspects' Did NOT Conveniently Commit Suicide
Local Madrid residents are choked by deliberate smoke screens and blinded by bright battle lamps, five seconds BEFORE the Spec Ops explosion which surgically tore the front off the 'suspect' apartment block Are you ready for the American 'War on Terror' explanation about the exploding terrorist suspects in the Madrid apartment? Here it is, quoted verbatim from "The Australian" newspaper, which is naturally quoting other newspapers, which in turn are quoting unnamed western security experts. I kid you not, you'll die laughing at this one - the mythical 'al Qaeda' now has a printed suicide manual that its invisible members leave at crime scenes!
"The [Madrid] terrorists who blew themselves up while shouting 'God is great' were following al-Qa'ida's textbook policy of self-destruction when cornered. Sarhane ben Abdelmajid Fakhet, as ringleader of the Spanish train massacre plot, was taking no chances. A suicide belt found on his body had been packed with at least 2kg of explosives.
"The defence of the bombers' lair was an al-Qa'ida textbook operation. Security services have got to know the thinking of Osama bin Laden's tacticians since a manual was discovered by British Special Branch officers who raided the Manchester home of terror suspect Anas al-Liby in 2000. Al-Liby, a Libyan, is on the run from the FBI with a $US25million ($33million) bounty on his head.
"Entitled Military Studies in the Jihad Against the Tyrants, the 180-page textbook lays down rules for choosing a flat and preparing to be attacked. Under the heading Security Precautions Relating to Apartments, volunteers are told to devise ways of leaving a flat in case of a surprise attack. Spain's Interior Minister, Angel Acebes, admitted two or three people might have escaped before the Madrid suicide explosion on the weekend.
"'When renting these apartments, one should avoid isolated or deserted locations, so the enemy would not be able to catch those living there easily,' the manual states. The Madrid bombers were holed up in the densely packed suburb of Leganes Norte, which had to be cleared before police could storm the building, giving time for some suspects to flee.
"'All members of the group should be committed to a security plan to 'minimise the work loss as much as possible' in case of a raid. Some should be assigned to monitor the flat; one should be planted close to the nearest police station 'to communicate the first sign of enemy movement'; and an armed guard should be posted.
"The al-Qa'ida manual says it should be agreed in advance which members will engage the enemy with bullets and who will flee with important documents. The occupants of the first-floor flat in Madrid spotted the police and began firing. The manual lays down the qualities required by a volunteer. Under the heading Sacrifice, it states: 'He has to be willing to do the work and undergo martyrdom.'
"Under Tranquillity and Unflappability, it states that the member 'should have a calm personality that allows him to endure ... traumas such as killing one or all of his organisation's comrades' ".Clear photos taken immediately after the blast prove that this was an expert demolition job. The thin front walls of the Madrid apartment block have been neatly blown out with light frame charges, leaving the pillars, floors and rear walls in pristine condition, unmarked by soot. Pay special attention to the painting on the inside wall in the right-hand photo. It is covered with fragile 3-mm glass, which is not even cracked. The fictional 'al-Qaeda' group is notionally Arabic, with Osama Bin Laden as its titular head. But as any Arab including Bin Laden will assure you, many of the complex English words used in the forged 'al Qaeda Suicide Manual' simply do not exist in Arabic. As to its origin, the forgery was handed to Police Special Branch by a member of the British Secret Intelligence Service [MI6], known locally as the obsequious British sub-branch of Israel's Mossad.
With all of this in mind, it appears at first that Spanish police and security authorities are blowing up apartment blocks in concert with the Mossad, to further promote 'al Qaeda' and the 'War on Terror', but nothing could be further from the truth. The names of the five Moroccan 'terror suspects' were provided to the western media by American and Israeli intelligence agencies, thus creating the illusion that Spain would never be safe until these fictional terrorists were caught.
By doing this, America and Israel were ensuring that international fear would destroy Spain's huge tourist industry, which has already suffered tens of thousands of summer holiday cancellations since the bomb attacks in Madrid. The subliminal message to the new incoming Spanish Labor Government was therefore obvious: "Leave your troops in Iraq or we will turn the rest of Spain into a fireball, and destroy what is left of your massive tourist industry."
It must be said that the Spanish Spec Ops solution to this massive national threat was ingenious. By faking the explosive 'suicides' of the five imaginary 'terrorists' named by America and Israel, Spain completely neutered this contrived threat, because no tourist on earth is going to be frightened of 'terrorists' who have already died very publicly on international television!
Of course, the Spanish authorities were suitably discreet about the whole affair, initially claiming that "a terrorist" had apparently committed suicide in the apartment, followed a few hours later by a claim of "three terrorists" when firemen had been allowed an appropriate amount of time to recover more of the imaginary bodies. Within 12 hours Spanish authorities were claiming that "All terrorists including the leader" had died in the blast, thereby neatly removing the induced fear component completely.
The obvious danger for America and Israel lies in the fact that "Old Europe" has now worked out who the real bombers are, and may at some point in the future decide to avenge the needless deaths of its citizens - perhaps by blowing blowing up a subway train or two in downtown Manhattan.





......Smile

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Old Post12-04-2004 21:25 PM
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dazzer666
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sorry to bring the level of this thread down, but this is the man looking for w.o.m.d..........................................................................

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THE VOICES.................................

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Old Post12-04-2004 21:35 PM
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Pacman

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[Edited by Pacman on 12-04-2004 22:03 PM]

Quote:
World Citizen wrote on 07-04-2004 04:50 AM
Mini-nukes are likely for many reasons



You know, there was a time when it was my job to know about such things, so if I can just weigh in with my professional opinion.

No.

The smallest nukes ever were the old W-48 tactical weapons*. They were small enough to be fired from a 155mm howitzer. That's about the smallest you can make a nuke for practical reasons.

The trouble with that is that the yield of a nuclear device that size is still 0.1 Kilotons, which is enough to vapourise the entire building. That's the equivalent to 100 tons of TNT. Compare that to the devastation of the Oklahoma bomb, which was about 2 tons of Anfo, a much less powerful explosive than TNT.

Besides, as one poster already mentioned, why use a nuke? You can easily knock down a building that size with conventional explosives. Demolition companies do it all the time. Why use a weapon which is ridiculously difficult to obtain and is way too powerful for the job when you could obtain something perfectly adequate very easily? It's highly illogical.

Methinks the conspiracy sites have been getting a little carried away on this one.

*Actually, there was a smaller one at 120mm, the obscure W-54 aka "Davy Crockett", but it had an even higher yield at 0.18KT. For those of you who like stupid facts, it was shot out of a rocket launcher on the back of a jeep, the maximum range of which was less than the blast radius of the warhead. Oh dear Dead

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Old Post12-04-2004 21:52 PM
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Pearsall
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Ken, do you kit out your tinfoil hats in a Hawaiian theme?

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Old Post12-04-2004 22:11 PM
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Bungle
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And in support of the Steel Beam theory we have the following interview taken from CNN.

The full article can be found at;

http://www.cnn.com/2001/COMMUNITY/09/13/rittenhouse.cnna/

I have cut out some of the parts not relevent to the Twin Towers collapse.

Tod Rittenhouse is an expert in blast engineering from the international consulting engineering firm Weidlinger Associates and has been the blast engineer for a number of embassies and government buildings. He has been called to discuss such problems as the Oklahoma City bombing and the previous World Trade Center calamity.

CNN: When you learned about the airplane hits and saw the pictures, what did you think about the structural soundness of the World Trade Center buildings?

RITTENHOUSE: When the event first occurred, naturally we all wondered how sound the building would be given the structure. We were concerned about the damage and in getting the people out in time before some type of collapse occurred. Like most people, I did not want to believe that a complete collapse could occur. But these were large bombs, strategically placed -- the bomb being the airplane and the placement being in a vulnerable spot in the building. The port authority has worked to secure the perimeter around the base of the building so the only way to attack the building is at a higher elevation -- such as an air attack.

CHAT PARTICIPANT: Can you explain why the buildings collapsed?

RITTENHOUSE: The exterior structure is comprised of columns. The vertical load bearing members and the horizontal elements called "beams." When the plane impacted the building, it severely damaged those exterior columns. The following fire further damaged the support columns. So it was a two step event; initial damage by plane and further damage or subsequent loss of structural stability that caused the building to fail.

CHAT PARTICIPANT: Was it due to the structural engineering that the building collapsed relatively straight down?

RITTENHOUSE: There are two reasons why it fell straight down. One is the structural engineering --how it was designed. And how it fell is really a phenomenon. The other reason is because the impact zone was so high up in the building that the weight of the uppermost floors fell onto the impact zone. Had the impact zone been lower in the building, the structure may have fallen in a tree-like effect, rather than crushing down on itself.

CHAT PARTICIPANT: I am amazed the buildings didn't collapse immediately when the planes crashed into them. Is this more or less unique for these two buildings?

RITTENHOUSE: No. They are very big buildings. They were carrying a lot of weight. And so the structure was acting as it was designed. In most buildings, you might be able to lose a column and have the building remain standing for a period of time. But given the structure of these buildings, and that is called a "tube structure," the remaining structural elements were able to carry the load. A tube structure building is like a garbage can, very rigid around the outside but once the damage starts, it is very easy to crush it. And this time that time to crush, that is, the time to achieve structural instability, was about an hour.

CHAT PARTICIPANT: Do you think the towers could have withstood the plane crashes if the fire hadn't burned so hot and so long?

RITTENHOUSE: Very difficult question. I think that if the fireball was not so great, that they could have contained the fire. Fires are meant to be fought in localized areas. In other words, if a fire breaks out in a 15th floor, the sprinklers will go off on the 15th and 16th floors and so on, up the building as required to fight local fire. However in this case, there were fires located on 15 to 20 different floors. So there was never enough water to arrest the fire to prevent structural instability.

CNN: Thank you for joining us today, Tod Rittenhouse.

RITTENHOUSE: Great... If I can be of any help, please contact me. Our Web site is: www.wai.com.

Tod Rittenhouse joined CNN.com via telephone. The above is an edited transcript of the interview on Thursday, September 13, 2001.

Spin

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Old Post13-04-2004 01:37 AM
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World Citizen
Ken O'Keefe

Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 511 - Threads: 46
Location: London

Quite frankly, all the arguments trying to debunk the mini-nuke possibility ignore all the other facts which make clear that some guy in a cave was not capable of 9-11. If you do not like mini-nukes but think the building was possibly or likely demolished with explosives then I feel no need to debate; aside from that I do not have the time.

Fucking long thread Thumpah Thumpah Thum, but a good one.

Bungle; you are the man, if CNN produced an expert to tell us it was melted steel beams that brought down the Twin Towers, then by jove, it must be true! Wink

World Citizen Spin Ken O'Keefe
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Old Post14-04-2004 00:30 AM
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Bungle
Slowly losing my...

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 7611 - Threads: 135
Location: Back in the Big Smoke

Quote:
World Citizen wrote on 14-04-2004 12:30 AM

Bungle; you are the man, if CNN produced an expert to tell us it was melted steel beams that brought down the Twin Towers, then by jove, it must be true! Wink



Thanks Blush

I see we've moved this debate onto the next level and progressed to a your experts better than mine stance, excellent work.

IF the attack on the Twin Towers was staged and succeded as well as it did then why did the other two planes fail to;

a) Destroy the pentagon.
b) Hit the white house.

Surely this would have also been part of the planned actions?

Quote:
World Citizen wrote on 14-04-2004 12:30 AM

that some guy in a cave was not capable of 9-11.




Since when did living in a cave mean you were unable to think and plan an operation.
Next your be telling us that it would be impossible for a guy that worked in a Patent office to come up with E=MC2

Spin

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Old Post14-04-2004 01:16 AM
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